On this episode Phyllis talks with transgender activist, harm reduction worker, and phenomenal phenomenological researcher Chloe Seongeun Kim about finding meaning as resistance to power & meaninglessness and how research can be an extension of oneself. As she says, “all good research must come from the heart with compassion.”
She currently works as a harm reduction worker with the amazing new ANCHOR program in Ottawa and is also a transgender rights activist, serving as the board president of Kindspace—a 2SLGBTQ+ community drop in organization providing a, well, kind space. She’s also had a number of research assistanceships including working at Bruyère Research Institute where she investigated quality of life of residents in long term care and strategies to ensure equity for transgender older adults.
After completing a BA in communications from Hankuk University of Foreign Studies in South Korea, Chloe just recently graduated with a Master of Arts in Sociology with a specialization in Feminist and Gender Studies at the University of Ottawa, where she was supervised by me. She also had the most badass thesis defense I think I ever attended and was nominated for a university award for her master’s thesis titled Am I trans enough? A hermeneutical phenomenological investigation into trans identities.
Works Cited
Butler, Judith. 1988. “Performative Acts and Gender Constitution: An Essay in Phenomenology and Feminist Theory.” Theatre Journal 40(4):519. doi: 10.2307/3207893.
Jaggar, Alison M. 1989. “Love and Knowledge: Emotion in Feminist Epistemology.” Inquiry 32(2):151–76. doi: 10.1080/00201748908602185.
Kim, Chloe Seongeun. 2024. ‘Am I Trans Enough?’: A Hermeneutical Phenomenological Investigation into Transgender Gender Identity. MA Thesis: University of Ottawa. https://doi.org/10.20381/ruor-30432
Lorde, Audre. 1997. “The Uses of Anger.” Women’s Studies Quarterly 25(1/2):278–85.
Tuck, Eve. 2009. “Suspending Damage: A Letter to Communities.” Harvard Educational Review 79(3):409–28. doi: 10.17763/haer.79.3.n0016675661t3n15.
Vonnegut, Kurt. 2004. “We Are Here On Earth To Fart Around” from a lecture at Case Western Reserve University https://youtu.be/nxpITF8fswE?si=PFxj4hVec3WVxaGE
Organizations Mentioned
Music “Like a Badass” by Jonathan Boyle
Sound Editing by Willow Rippeyoung
© Phyllis L. F. Rippey, 2024
Transcript
Hello and welcome to doing Social Research where I talk with some of my favorite people who do Social Research to dig into the cool projects they’re working on, along with their struggles and successes that they’ve had.
00:00:13 Speaker 1
In their careers.
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My goal is to help.
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Demystify research for students, help other researchers hear stories.
00:00:20 Speaker 1
Of their colleagues wins and losses and provide a platform for all the brilliant work of folks doing research in the humanities and social sciences. I’m your host, Phyllis Rippy, a professor of sociology at the University of Ottawa and creator of the website doing Social Research.
00:00:36 Speaker 1
Com. I’ve been teaching research methods for over 15 years and have carried out my own sociological research using both qualitative methods and advanced statistics. But today we’re not here to talk about me. We’re here to talk with Chloe Kim about finding meaning as resistance to power and how research can be an extension of oneself.
00:00:56 Speaker 1
And she says all good research must come from the heart with compassion.
00:01:01 Speaker 1
Client currently works as a harm reduction worker with the amazing new anchor program in Ottawa, and is also a transgender rights activist serving as the board President of Kind Space A2 S LGBTQ plus community drop, an organization providing, well, a kind space. She’s also had a number of research assistantships, including working at Rear Research Institute.
00:01:21 Speaker 1
Really invested, gated quality of life, of residents and long term care and strategies to ensure equity for transgender older.
00:01:28 Speaker 1
After completing a BA in communications from Hancock University of Foreign Studies in South Korea, Chloe just recently graduated with the Masters of Arts and Sociology with a specialization in feminist and Gender Studies at the University of Ottawa, where she was supervised by yours truly. MOA, and where she also had the most .
00:01:48 Speaker 1
Thesis defence. I think I’ve ever witnessed in my life and she was nominated for a university award for her Masters thesis titled AM I Trans Enough? A hermeneutical phenomenological investigation into trans.
00:02:02 Speaker 2
Welcome. Thank you for having me, Phyllis.
00:02:05 Speaker 1
I’m so excited to talk with you and to have.
00:02:07 Speaker 1
You.
00:02:07 Speaker 1
Here and I just, I just think you’re amazing and I’ve always loved your research. And it was such a pleasure getting to work with you on your project. But I wonder if we could start with.
00:02:21 Speaker 1
You just sort of.
00:02:22 Speaker 1
Explaining what the hell that title like I get the first part. Am I trans enough? And obviously I get it because I was your supervisor. But for those who don’t know what a hermeneutical phenomenological investigation it means, could you just like what is?
00:02:40 Speaker 2
So basically hermeneutical phenomenology, like as much as it sounds like scary, it’s basically going to the people themselves and listening to their story and trying to find what they think about their own like experiences, how they find meaning from their experiences.
00:03:00 Speaker 2
So instead of like having like you know hypothesis like and theories and everything like that, it’s just going to the participant themselves hearing their stories and capturing all their stories essentially.
00:03:15 Speaker 2
So basically what I did with the research is that I went to the trans people in Ottawa and listened to their stories about how they found out their about their identity, how they think about their identity and also how they explore their identity.
00:03:34 Speaker 2
And like kind of like, you know, push it together, kind of like, you know, try to extract I guess I don’t know if the extract will be the white word word but.
00:03:42 Speaker 1
No, that’s what I learned from the committee member who’s a phenomenologist is we’re not extracting, but we.
00:03:48 Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
00:03:49 Speaker 1
Where?
00:03:50 Speaker 1
I still don’t know what do we say. We’re we’re, like trying to make sense of trying to understand the experiences from the in sense of self, right, like from within.
00:04:03 Speaker 2
Exactly. Exactly. So like, like you said, like trying to understand the meaning of those experiences. And also, you know, for ourselves too, what does that meaning means to us?
00:04:06 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:04:18 Speaker 1
As a researcher.
00:04:19 Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
00:04:20 Speaker 1
Yeah. So what did you find? What? What was it that.
00:04:24 Speaker 1
What did? How did people make meaning of their search for their gender identity?
00:04:30 Speaker 2
Through like the basic like the research question I had was that like it comes from my own like personal experiences, right? Like I I am a trans woman, but like to realize that it took a.
00:04:44 Speaker 2
Lot of steps.
00:04:45 Speaker 2
And journey to get there. And certain times I’m still not sure if am I like woman or not. Am I trans enough? Like, you know, for the title. So there is this like always this uncertain.
00:04:57 Speaker 2
OK, right. And also when I was in like, you know university like doing like famous, you know like classes and stuff like what like the ongoing thing was that ohh like gender is a social construction. It’s like, you know, performative thing.
00:05:17 Speaker 2
To the bother so.
00:05:20 Speaker 2
Yeah, let’s say, like all these things are true, then all if, like gender is truly like socially constructed and performative, then how do I know that I am a woman? Right. It’s kind of like an eternal struggle. And also, Phil, it’s like you kind of like asked that question to me, I think.
00:05:41 Speaker 2
That’s why I got into the question in the 1st place. So thank you.
00:05:45 Speaker 1
Fair enough. Yeah, so.
00:05:48 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:05:50 Speaker 2
So I kind of like started like thinking about it like introspection and also went to the participant and asked my research and the core thing was that knowing isn’t not something that we suddenly like realized at the moment, but it’s more of a continuous journey, right? It’s something we do continuously finding joy.
00:06:12 Speaker 2
Out of it. Kind of like kind of building a Lego set, like picking out different Legos, building and stuff if you do.
00:06:19 Speaker 2
Like it, you know, taking something out, it’s turned out the whole process.
00:06:23 Speaker 1
One of the things that I loved about our discussions when we were in our like grad student meetings or or what I want to whenever talking about your project is this sort of this discovery that like working with you.
00:06:39 Speaker 1
Helped me to have as well just about thinking about our like any kind of identity and that it’s so.
00:06:48 Speaker 1
I don’t know. Funny is the right word, but it’s like there’s this idea with gender that we’re supposed to have this, like, static. Understated, like you’re born. You’re assigned this gender. And then either you stick with it or, like one day you’re like, oh, damn, that’s not me. Whereas any other kind of identity, like just about any other identity, a person.
00:07:07 Speaker 1
And.
00:07:08 Speaker 1
Have it’s like we we grow with it. You know, it’s like I was saying at the time, I was like, playing the flute, which I haven’t picked up in like a year. But I’m still paying for. But anyway, but it, you know, so it’s like, I would talk about how it’s like, you know, I’m I’m not a professional loudest, but I play the flute. It’s like, I’m like, I’m just learning how to play. It’s like, do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to like?
00:07:28 Speaker 1
Join an orchestra. Do I want more of this? Do I want less of this? And it like it just started to make this kind of, like, intuitive sense of, like, why is it with gender that we have this requirement that like, you know, like that this is the one thing?
00:07:45 Speaker 1
And you know, I I think that your work just really showed the like.
00:07:51 Speaker 1
The fluidity of it and also I will say like one of the things and I got to like make sure I’m not just talking because that’s one of my goals of this podcast is that I shut up and I listened to my guest. But it is this.
00:08:05 Speaker 1
This idea that this this isn’t even though the thesis title is, am I trans enough and it’s about trans identities. It’s not just about trans people. It’s about sort of.
00:08:15 Speaker 1
Identity and it’s about gender for everybody that we all have these kinds of shifting gender identities that it’s not like none of us feel completely like, you know, like, I have moments where I’m like, I’m so Butch and I have moments where I’m like, you know, I’m like today I’m all dressed up and I’m all got my makeup on.
00:08:36 Speaker 1
And so it’s like, why wouldn’t a trans person get to have that same kind?
00:08:41 Speaker 1
Of like and and also that you talk about joy like why not also get that joy of like having days where you’re like I want to be Butch and I want to like, you know, I was going to say punch someone in the face but.
00:08:53 Speaker 1
I mean like enough that it’s like no one can **** with me. And then there’s days where it’s like I want to be a pretty Princess, you know, like, does that.
00:09:00 Speaker 1
Am I making any sense?
00:09:01 Speaker 2
Oh yeah, of course. Like this research, definitely. Like you said, it’s mostly focused on like trans people, but it leaves a room for, like, you know, kind of like expansion, right, like looking into other identities.
00:09:14 Speaker 2
Just like generally self.
00:09:16 Speaker 2
I use an example of like you know my identity as a gamer girl in the research. But you know for like that example like I like video games, but I didn’t born knowing that. You know, I like video games. I first had to like try like different video games like try.
00:09:21 Speaker 1
Alright.
00:09:36 Speaker 2
Like you know.
00:09:37 Speaker 2
Strategy games like FPS’s like maybe, like story based games, and similarly I picked up, oh, I like this. Oh, I don’t like that. And through that I was able to like build up my own like unique identity and just like that, like, gender doesn’t have to be just strictly.
00:09:58 Speaker 2
You know, locked into this one box, it can be also like so much different things, so much possibilities. And like you said, the the element of joy is really important, right? Why not have fun?
00:10:10 Speaker 2
Finding your own unique gender identity like you do with your flute playing like I do with my games. My other people do like finding joy from gardening, playing different plants like you know, all that kind of things. So I think this research has been.
00:10:32 Speaker 2
My way to kind of resist the social norm that tries to.
00:10:37 Speaker 2
Put people into like different boxes, different kind of like structures and also for myself too, like through this. Like now that I realize that I don’t have to be this one specific image of gender I can truly explore and try out different things and also outside of my life.
00:10:57 Speaker 2
Too, like for my like professional work I can do like different work to try to see if. If I like this if I don’t like.
00:11:05 Speaker 2
This and kind of like bringing pushing myself out of my comfort zone and expanding my horizon of myself.
00:11:14 Speaker 1
I love that, and it’s so liberating, like it is like liberation through joyfulness. And I also would like, I was just thinking too, that I know in your thesis that part of what you’re talking about.
00:11:26 Speaker 1
Also that you one of your goals was to get away from the kind of like pathologizing of trans people, but not just as, like mentally ill kind of stuff, but also just like it’s so often presented as like depressing. Like, could you speak to that a little bit like?
00:11:44 Speaker 2
Oh yeah, of.
00:11:45 Speaker 2
Like as a trans person and also like I know a lot of you, like the audiences have noticed that in the media it has been like changing a little bit, but when they detect the trans person or other like queer, like marginalized identities, they always are depicted as these beings with like pain.
00:12:06 Speaker 2
Going to a lot of like difficult life situations like, you know, one like infamous stereotypes that when there’s a trans character like they’re going to get killed at the end.
00:12:16 Speaker 2
Which is really, really depressing and like growing up watching that all over and over again, like my image of Transfield, was that all these people are so, like always sick. They’re like poor things and something to be taken care of. And as like basically a disease being something that have like they like agency they like.
00:12:37 Speaker 2
Autonomy, and it does the same. It does that thing to all trans people. 11 society depicts certain groups of people.
00:12:48 Speaker 2
As these are people who lack agency, they become those kind of people who like agency, like in context of Canada, like when a lot of researchers did research on indigenous communities or they did also the exact same thing too. So when I was like.
00:13:08 Speaker 2
I mean, like, you know, feminists like horses, wealth of scholars. I was really, really impressed and got influenced was was EVE talk and they talked about like, you know how we need to stop doing that kind of like pain based research basically and try to.
00:13:15 Speaker 1
OK.
00:13:26 Speaker 2
Focus more on joy because instead of focusing on pain, if you focus on joy, then leave the room for the participants, those marginalized groups, those trans people to have their voices back. It brings people into a position where they have their own agency, their dreams, their hopes.
00:13:48 Speaker 2
And just.
00:13:50 Speaker 2
You know, make them kind of like humanizing them, right, just as you know, all these other people like, you know, around us.
00:13:53 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:13:59 Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I don’t think it’s like trying to suggest that like trans people are happy every second.
00:14:05 Speaker 1
Of every day.
00:14:06 Speaker 1
But just that it’s like like all of us, we have like.
00:14:10 Speaker 1
Horrible times we go through and we have times that are great and that it’s like we get to be whole human beings with like the complexity of emotions that we everybody has.
00:14:19 Speaker 2
Exactly like focusing on joy doesn’t mean that you’re going to, like, deny the pain, like the pain.
00:14:26 Speaker 2
Works of really, really important role in our lives, right? It exposes like, you know, in terms of power, like power in differences, the damage that has been inflicted by those in power, structural inequalities and stuff. But while.
00:14:46 Speaker 2
You know, focusing on pain could be useful in exposing those gaps.
00:14:51 Speaker 2
Like, again, like just focusing on pain is different from also focusing on joy, which can also show you like alternative ways to kind of address and kind of fix those structural gaps.
00:15:06 Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, and I love that in in your thesis you were talking like it wasn’t just.
00:15:11 Speaker 1
That trans people experience joy, but that joy became a tool almost, and that it’s joy. Well, you you tell me about that. So I’m not saying what it is. Yeah.
00:15:23 Speaker 2
Ah, yeah, like jewelry. It might like for my research, it was a central guiding tool for like trans people. And I believe for all of us to navigate through our own identities, right. Like, we cannot see or like feel or touch our own like identities.
00:15:43 Speaker 2
Right. It’s so big. It’s inside of us and.
00:15:47 Speaker 2
But.
00:15:48 Speaker 2
I believe joy is how we kind of like identify and like feel through our identities. So I think I made this kind of metaphor in my research saying that.
00:16:05 Speaker 2
If exploring and trying out different things is kind of extending your own finger onto your like body, than joy is the texture of the identity, right? You touch something ohh this this joyous feeling. This is how I look like inside.
00:16:25 Speaker 2
UM.
00:16:27 Speaker 2
And yeah, through that. Like we found out about ourselves, but also one of the things about this jewel is that this is also reciprocal, right? Once you feel joy, you also want to, like, share that joy and extend that joy to others because we are all like.
00:16:47 Speaker 2
Connected being we cannot exist ourselves, we always explore themselves.
00:17:03 Speaker 2
Again, towards us, they will also extend like part of themselves towards us and through that, oh, that person is, you know, joyful finding happiness by doing this. And I see that. And I could like try that for myself, try to see if that brings joy to me. And now that you know, there’s another part that.
00:17:23 Speaker 2
That’s been added on to my identity, right?
00:17:25 Speaker 1
Yeah, I love it. I mean, I think that’s I as we were.
00:17:29 Speaker 1
Chuckling about like you and I started working on a paper together and I we were chuckling because I have been very relaxed and.
00:17:37 Speaker 1
Finding the time to get to.
00:17:39 Speaker 1
It, but I mean to me, I think that that is something that we, you know, like it’s really bringing in sort of some different sociological ideas. I mean, no.
00:17:49 Speaker 1
Obviously you’re in sociology, but also like neuroscience and different sort of different.
00:17:56 Speaker 1
Theoretical approaches that help us to see the ways in which, like like the mirror self, like how others see us, really can influence our sense of who we are and that if we are experiencing only hate or negativity or any kind of environmental uncertainty.
00:18:17 Speaker 1
We’re gonna be like, we’re gonna maybe hide that part of ourselves. And so I think.
00:18:22 Speaker 1
It’s, you know, really speaks to people being like, Oh no, there’s like so many more trans people. And it’s because of TikTok and they’re all. And it’s like, no, like, you **** . It’s that people are, like, allowed to experience the joy that they want to experience like that we all want to experience. And so and they’re like.
00:18:42 Speaker 1
Yeah, I want to keep doing this because this feels awesome and it’s like, you know, a little bit safer than than it once was. Although in many ways it’s not. And so I think it’s, I just think that it really speaks to this idea of.
00:18:59 Speaker 1
You know that that we all want to just feel like loved and accepted and that we can be, you know, we can enact the parts of ourselves that feel really joyous. And we don’t have to, like, be afraid of them. Which again is so beautiful and liberating.
00:19:19 Speaker 1
And yeah, and so like, how like you had said earlier that you?
00:19:27 Speaker 1
You know that that you’ve been thinking a lot lately about how finding meaning is a kind of form of resistance to power. And I mean, I think that’s really related to what we’re talking about. Like it’s finding, I mean it, it also feels like finding joy is a kind of resistance to power. Can you speak to?
00:19:46 Speaker 1
That a little bit.
00:19:47 Speaker 2
Exactly like I think we kind of like touched upon it briefly earlier, but it’s the idea that.
00:19:57 Speaker 2
Society, like in general like as it’s kind of like hard to like Wi-Fi like the society in general, but there’s like trans will be coming from like politicians, like just like maybe from your parents like all these like forces that idea that gender has to be this one way.
00:20:16 Speaker 2
And only this way and if you go out of it, then you’re a sick person. That’s a form of like, exertion of one.
00:20:24 Speaker 2
Hour and like it is pushing people into a lot of, like dangerous places. Like, you know, as you know, a lot of like trans people have, like higher, like sociability compared to like us as people. And that’s a result of that. And this kind of like research.
00:20:44 Speaker 2
For trans people coming from my own like experiences and my own question. But of course, like there is a, you know, aspect of expanding knowledge about trans people and gender and expanding the discipline of feminism itself. But it is also kind of like resisting that.
00:21:02 Speaker 2
The power right finding and making rooms for trans people to thrive and become themselves and say no to their cruelty in general.
00:21:14 Speaker 1
Yeah, I love it. I love it. It’s so amazing. So do you find like it it becomes clearer from what you’ve been saying?
00:21:22 Speaker 1
To like like it’s clear to me how that research relates to your work on multiple boards of trans resistance. But do you find that this research also relates to the work that you’re doing through the anchor program at all? Could you explain what the program is and sort?
00:21:39 Speaker 1
Like I I can see connections, but I think it’s.
00:21:43 Speaker 1
Or maybe not as as explicit. So yeah, like well, first tell everybody what the anchor program is because it is amazing. Pardon my French.
00:21:54 Speaker 2
Yes, of course. So basically anchor program stands for alternative neighborhood crisis response. It is a alternative 24 hour immediate response for mental health and substance use crisis.
00:22:11 Speaker 2
So if you are feeling or witnessing mental health or substances crisis, for example like suicidal ideation like drug overdoses, like even just like feeling extreme like depression, anxiety, if you feel like socially isolated.
00:22:30 Speaker 2
Finding trouble navigating system.
00:22:33 Speaker 2
Uh, we can be there like to provide immediate and appropriate support at the spot. And also this is a kind of continuous like support. So there will be like follow up support to provide you continuous care and not case management exactly but.
00:22:52 Speaker 2
We can also refer you to social workers so that you can have, like you know, support network around you.
00:23:03 Speaker 2
A lot of people who are going through, like mental health and substance use crisis, so this will be like a non police community approach on these crisis or.
00:23:14 Speaker 2
All of our workers have like diverse backgrounds and also a lot of us have live experiences with mental health issues and substance use issues as well, so it is more like empathy, conversational based approach so that we could be there for.
00:23:32 Speaker 2
People and the program is like, funded by the City of Ottawa. It’s a pilot program for three years to see like how this like performs and like plans to expand it. If it goes well. So currently it is within the boundaries of like centre town.
00:23:52 Speaker 2
We are specifically from from the.
00:23:56 Speaker 2
Let me think from the east of Video Canal to the West, Preston to the north of the river and to the South of the Queen’s Way. So if you’re in this area called 211 or if you are again like feeling or witnessing mental health or substance crisis or you can also call 911, they can direct.
00:24:18 Speaker 2
2211 If they deem necessary so yeah, there is no wrong door and you know either ways you can definitely access our program.
00:24:28 Speaker 1
It’s such a cool program because I know that it’s, you know, they’re.
00:24:32 Speaker 1
Like that. This, I think, came about, as you know, concerns that there are because there weren’t.
00:24:39 Speaker 1
Like police aren’t necessarily trained as social workers, like they’re not trained as crisis. Like. I mean, certain crises. But you know, it’s like firefighters do their job and police do their job. It’s like, I think it’s just amazing to have also, you know, crisis workers who are really specifically trained to help.
00:24:57 Speaker 1
People who are, you know, having mental health or other kinds of crises like that, is that fair?
00:25:02 Speaker 2
Hmm.
00:25:02 Speaker 2
To say yeah. Exactly. And I think this kind of work relates to my life, you know, time in, like, feminist discipline. And my research because, like, first of all, when I was in, like, you know, all of those like feminist seminars, we always talked about.
00:25:18 Speaker 2
Having that community care and community like intervention in these kind of cases instead of policing because a lot of like scholars have said that policing is a kind of like a form of state power. So like it is definitely not like.
00:25:37 Speaker 2
It might not work in like marginalized peoples cases, so finding and creating those like safe places where community members goes there like creating this place, this kind safe place where one could.
00:25:57 Speaker 2
Express oneself like express about.
00:26:00 Speaker 2
Like what? They’re going through their lives without the fear of persecution. It is really important, right? Because, like I said earlier, you know, while like joy is important, pain is also very important for us. It kind of exposes, you know, what?
00:26:20 Speaker 2
What kind of like gaps are in our lives? What gaps are in the system and through that, like having that kind of safe place to explain?
00:26:30 Speaker 2
In Express and disclose it to the workers and the community members, we can all collaborate and work together to kind of fix, navigate through those difficult gaps and you know also most importantly, give this compassionate ear and pathetic ear.
00:26:50 Speaker 2
These people to, you know, at least feel better for the day because most of us, when we are are in those kind of situations. Having that ear is.
00:27:02 Speaker 2
You know what the best ways you could approach these people, right? And yeah. Lastly, also like I think it is also kind of like a form of research, right, because you know, of course like all the details like stays confidential and it’s not like we like share.
00:27:22 Speaker 2
Everything to all these different people, but we’ve been noticing, like certain patterns. Oh, like there’s this big gap.
00:27:31 Speaker 2
In our like you know, in our city in Canada and generally and also in the world and through that like.
00:27:39 Speaker 2
You.
00:27:40 Speaker 2
Once we kind of like find the consistent or issues themes then we can kind of like tell like the city and you know Prime Minister maybe. Hey. Hey. Like there’s there’s issues going on and it’s like proven by day like here like all these people have been like telling the same thing. So maybe you could you know.
00:28:00 Speaker 2
I’ll try to address it right.
00:28:02 Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I, I live in the neighborhood that you serve and it’s like I can.
00:28:07 Speaker 1
I can see that there’s just a lot of suffering happening on the streets of Ottawa and that, you know, it feels it feels very different than you know it used to be. And you know people, you know, obviously there was the pandemic and I don’t know, like, I’m very interested. I mean, there’s part of me.
00:28:18
Mm-hmm.
00:28:27 Speaker 1
Where it’s like I’m a mom and my kid goes to an elementary school and there was like two people shooting up heroin right in front of the school, sitting on a bench like they were trying to, like, cover themselves with, like, hoodies or something. It was.
00:28:39 Speaker 1
Like.
00:28:41 Speaker 1
It’s really complicated, like hard, it’s like. But I want people to be treated like human beings, you know? Like I want people to be treated like human beings. But I also don’t want people doing heroin in front of my kids school. And so it’s like there needs to be a way that people can get help that isn’t just like incarcerating them.
00:29:00 Speaker 1
That isn’t just criminalizing people, but that, you know, like I want everybody to be safe. And I mean, and I think I can see that too, with like what you’re talking about in your thesis.
00:29:10 Speaker 1
You know, like your goal of, like, exploring gender identity and all of, like, all of the attendant stuff is to treat people like, to see people as full, complex human beings.
00:29:23 Speaker 2
Exactly like they’re like treating people as like it’s the same human. It’s a very important piece, right? Ever since I started this job, I’ve been been there for with the community members and hearing their stories. And just like talking to them as like.
00:29:40 Speaker 2
You know, as a fellow human and one thing I, you know, saw in witnessing is that, you know, as much as it sounds so obvious. They are just like us, you know.
00:29:55 Speaker 2
People out out there doing substances, everything they have their hopes and dreams and you know things they want to do like.
00:30:06 Speaker 2
I kind of like disclose like too much. But you know, it’s so vibrant. It’s a whole community out there and all of our people so far has been not focusing on the community and treating like this, you know, like these things, right, like it kind of goes back to, connects back to what?
00:30:26 Speaker 2
We talked earlier.
00:30:29 Speaker 2
If the media and the society has been treating substance users like homeless people as this like pain being spa actually, there’s so much joy in these communities. There’s so much dreams and hopes and they have their own life projects. They are thinking about.
00:30:50 Speaker 2
Like you know, people look after each other like they keep themselves like, you know, keep others alive and.
00:30:59 Speaker 2
Finding that joy kind of makes me reflect on my own bigotry in the past and also kind of exposes all like, how these people like on the street just went on like pedestrians, like people like see like that kind of like normalize bigotry on these people. It it’s just like.
00:31:19 Speaker 2
Such a like eye opening thing for me. Uh. So yeah, it is definitely I guess.
00:31:25 Speaker 2
Like.
00:31:26 Speaker 2
You know, research on the data part, like I said earlier, but also like opportunity for myself to I look back upon myself.
00:31:37 Speaker 1
I love that. Yeah, I mean and it again, as as someone who lives in the area, I really relate to it that I can find my own bigotry coming out, like in my frustration or in a like with somebody like we need more housing, we need more services.
00:31:52 Speaker 1
But, like, stop doing drugs like it’s cool. But it is this, like, that’s just really beautiful, what you’re saying. And I think I it also all of what you’re saying in terms of motion makes me think of the work of like Audrey Lord and Alison Jagger, 2 feminists who talk about sort of emotion as a tool, like as a.
00:32:13 Speaker 1
As a way to identify, you know, Audrey Lord in particular, talk about anger as a tool to identify injustice. And you know, sometimes not that I want to like.
00:32:25 Speaker 1
Valid.
00:32:26 Speaker 1
The big ifs, but it it’s like it does make me think like, what is the injustice that they think that they’re experiencing, you know, like, what is the injustice that like?
00:32:39 Speaker 1
And to me, I think often it’s like entitlement. It’s like this, this like idea. Like, I remember thinking this with, like, the truckers where it was like, like for the not truckers in general. But like the convoy who came here. And it was, you know, people that I knew who were, you know, anti mask or anti vaxxers, it was like people who’ve lived their whole lives.
00:32:59 Speaker 1
Getting to do whatever they want.
00:33:01 Speaker 1
And never being sort of surveilled by the state, never having the kinds of experiences that like by POC people or trans people, or all kinds of people experience all the time. It’s like suddenly they’re like, how dare you suggest I have to wear a mask. I have freedom. And so, you know, I think that sometimes it’s like.
00:33:21 Speaker 1
We all experience anger as a response to injustice, but.
00:33:25 Speaker 1
Sometimes our perception of the injustice is like out of whack. You know what I mean?
00:33:32 Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. I think like personally it comes from mostly the emotion of fear, right? Like, like, I cannot like, you know, go into, like every person’s psychology or, like, chokers or like those, like bigots. But what I observed is that.
00:33:50 Speaker 2
The.
00:33:52 Speaker 2
The fear that they will no longer have this meaning in their lives, right? A lot of a lot of people try to find meaning in their lives. This world, and some people might go to religion. Some type people might go on to like, certain political.
00:34:11 Speaker 2
Ideology conservative, not conservative conspiracy theories or like this giant like purpose in life, like try to save people and all that. And it’s a whole struggle to.
00:34:27 Speaker 2
And I’ll find meaning from this kind of like meaningless world. I don’t. I want. I don’t want to say that like, it’s not that the world is hopeless. But I’ve been reading a lot of of, like, are right on me or like, all these, like absurdist, like, existentialist of philosophies.
00:34:47 Speaker 1
OK.
00:34:47 Speaker 2
And it’s about like the idea of how we’re thrown into this world without any meaning. And we have to kind of like try to find meaning out.
00:34:57 Speaker 2
Like something right? And some people might be comfortable being in this one structure and not to like judging them. You know, finding that kind of 1 certain purpose in life and one like structure is definitely like comfortable but.
00:35:16 Speaker 2
When you think about how these different structures can also harm people, right? Like if you truly believe there is only two genders and you know transfer doesn’t exist, then it harms trans people. It harms queer people.
00:35:33 Speaker 2
And being able to reflect on that and try to expand and challenge that boundary, it is definitely fearful because you feel like you’re again getting thrown into this meaningless world and try to kind of like find the meaning all over again. But.
00:35:51 Speaker 2
Kind of realizing that that you know.
00:35:54 Speaker 2
These are all just, you know.
00:35:57 Speaker 2
Structures and meanings created by ourselves, and we can also create other meanings continuously, you know, through our lives. Then I want to say to those people who are fearful of getting out of those boxes that it will be OK like you’re not going to.
00:36:17 Speaker 2
He lost.
00:36:20 Speaker 2
You are still part of this world, and while while while you’re here like, you know, have some fun, you know, try different things.
00:36:28 Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
00:36:30 Speaker 1
I love that.
00:36:30 Speaker 1
It also makes you I have a I love Kurt Vonnegut. He’s like a.
00:36:35 Speaker 1
Writer and I especially love him because I graduated from the University of Iowa and he was. I never had anything to do with him. But the writers Workshop is like one of the best writing programs in in the world, probably in Kirkland.
00:36:48 Speaker 1
Was a was a professor there for a long time, but in now I’m forgetting which one of his books. But I have like a mug with all these, like little quotes and my favorite one on.
00:36:56 Speaker 1
It says we’re all just here to fart around.
00:36:59 Speaker 1
Like, yeah, kind of. We’re just like all here to fart around. And it’s like we can have fun while we’re doing that. Or we can, you know, make misery for others. But I think it’s better to personally, to have fun. I just wear. I also wanted to ask you.
00:37:10 Speaker 2
MHM.
00:37:17 Speaker 1
About your photography, because I know that you and you are a photography enthusiast, but I also love you. You make beautiful photo like photos that I I see on Instagram or Facebook and I was just wondering, do you think that do you think that’s part of your? I mean is that an art? Is that research? Is there a difference?
00:37:37 Speaker 1
Is that do you? Do you see that as part of you?
00:37:41 Speaker 1
Taking in the world. How, what? What do?
00:37:44 Speaker 1
You like about it?
00:37:45 Speaker 2
Ohh absolutely like I you know that is funny because I also have like my camera over there with me right now. Like whenever I go out there like, you know, doing something outside my work, I like to carry on my around my camera and like now that you mentioned it I think it is also kind of like a form of research, right.
00:37:51 Speaker 1
Ohh nice.
00:38:04 Speaker 2
Research onto myself and the world around me when I like, take my pictures. I try to find the angle and subjects that brings me certain kind of emotions and certain kind of story to me.
00:38:20 Speaker 2
And it’s kind of like photography is kind of like the meaning of the photography itself is by drawing by light, or it’s basically painting with this little like light molecules hitting this, you know, film surfaces. And when I take the picture.
00:38:40 Speaker 2
Like all the the lights, the subjects, the angle, it kind of all tells the story.
00:38:46 Speaker 2
And while, like some people might like walk by this just random shoe or random person or random thing, I try to still try to find like, oh, what does this mean here? Like, you know, what can? Well, how can it be interpreted and how? What does it tell about me?
00:39:07 Speaker 2
Thinking about that, it’s kind of like, you know, all very like phenomenological again, right, like.
00:39:14 Speaker 1
How so?
00:39:15 Speaker 2
How so? So one thing about phenomenology is intentionality, right? So the phenomenon, the happenings, the meaning doesn’t exist solely out there just by themselves. It has to come to us first to find meaning. It’s all like the connection with.
00:39:20
OK.
00:39:35 Speaker 2
Going back and forth, there’s no like subject or like object dichotomy. We are all kind of like connected finding meaning from each other.
00:39:44 Speaker 2
And this random shoe just, you know, random graffiti on the wall, you know, it might be graffiti, but when I look at it phenomenologically, then I try to examine what that meaning like what? That phenomenon has certain meaning to me. And by taking photograph from different angles.
00:40:05 Speaker 2
By looking at it in different like intentional like angle lights like timing and different even like film stocks, film roles like black and white colour.
00:40:18 Speaker 2
Extracts, not extracts, again, explores and understands. Kind of. It’s a formal understanding. My own feelings and my thoughts. So by looking at the photo on it kind of shows, you know what I’m interested in?
00:40:37 Speaker 2
What I’m feeling, what I want to tell to the people.
00:40:42 Speaker 2
And it kind of makes me realize, oh, I am this person who would like to see these different things, all these things in the world, these things in the world might want to tell this different kind of story. And it makes us look at the world differently. And it brings a different.
00:41:03 Speaker 2
Knowledge to this world.
00:41:05 Speaker 1
I love that. Oh, my God, that was beautiful. I think that’s like the the perfect note to end on. So I just want to, well, is there anything else that you wanna that you want to make sure you get in before we end?
00:41:18 Speaker 2
Well, of course, like, thanks for having me again, Phyllis, like.
00:41:22 Speaker 1
Ohh, we’ll see you this was awesome this.
00:41:25 Speaker 1
Was so good.
00:41:26 Speaker 2
Like I had so much fun like talking with you. Like, just reflecting on like my research and my work and everything. But to the audiences, I also want to say that, you know.
00:41:39 Speaker 2
Just try to find joy in our lives, right. Try to explore different things like you know, if it doesn’t work out for you, that’s totally fine. Like fine, like safe spaces where you can, like, explore, try out different stuff. And I hope by doing that.
00:41:59 Speaker 2
I hope you find yourself growing a bit bigger the next day.
00:42:06 Speaker 1
I love that. Oh my God. You were so.
00:42:08 Speaker 1
Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for.
00:42:10 Speaker 1
Here this is just. Oh, my God, I’m so excited about this podcast and having you as my first guest just is like.
00:42:18 Speaker 1
Chefs kiss. So thank you. This was amazing. Alright, well, if you liked this episode, please give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and write even just a tiny sentence fragment about what you like about it. It will really help us to reach more listeners and make doing Social Research.
00:42:39 Speaker 1
Within the reach of everyone.
One reply on “Transgender Joy & Finding Meaning as Resistance to Power”
Thank You, Chloe and Professor Rippey for this enlightening and refreshing episode. I can clearly see how this theory-finding locations of Joy, meaning and shifting gears to identify what really works- could be applied to every aspect of my life. It feels like a powerful way to resist the capitalist machine we navigate daily.